MR. HILLEL FRADKIN: I’m Hillel Fradkin, the President of the Center and also the Director of its project on Islam and American Democracy. And, I’m very pleased to welcome you to today’s event, "The Struggle for Iraqi Civil Society," and particularly to welcome back Zainab, who has spoken here before.

I warned her about this, but Zainab was kind enough to say in a recent publication that, concerning her talk last time, "At the Ethics and Public Policy Center, you believe that standing up for freedom and democracy and civil society makes America and the world a better and safer place." I hope that she has the same feeling after today’s session.

I could and should in principle provide a long introduction for Zainab, who, though young, has already a very distinguished career, but I think you have some sense of that from the invitation you have received, and I don’t want to use up too much of our time on introductions.

First of all, she has some very important things to tell us today. And, in a way, the most important part of her resume for today’s event is the past six to nine months spent working in Iraq on various projects, and, therefore, able to give us a good sense of what’s going on in Iraq, what Iraq needs, and so forth.

She comes to this from -- as you know or should know, she is able to look at the present experience of Iraq in the light of an earlier experience of Iraq, the experience of Iraq of her childhood and youth and, of course, also the very tragic events of 1991.

The other reason I’d like to get started fairly quickly is that, naturally, there are other people in town, who are interested in Zainab’s recent experiences, her impressions and opinions, including people up on the Hill. And so, ordinarily, we might linger a little bit past 2:00, but today we’ll have to end at that point to get her to some other appointments.

Zainab.

MS. ZAINAB AL-SUWAIJ: Good afternoon. Thank you, Hillel, very much for giving -- that’s fine -- giving me this opportunity to be here again at the Center for Ethics and Public Policy. It’s great to be here and great to be back home, as I can call it. I have two homes now -- one in Baghdad and one here. But, I’m supposed to be here on vacation for three weeks, but Hillel wanted me to be here, so I cannot say just no.

At the beginning, I would like to thank you all for being here today, and it’s an honor for me. I haven’t given a presentation or a talk in English for the past seven months. So, a couple of my friends told me that my Arabic accent, when I speak in English, gets really thick. So, I thought being seven months in the field, it’s just (inaudible).

What an amazing challenge to be from one year ago, the hope, the possibility, the liberation, thinking freely, talking freely in Iraq. It certainly came to take a different path.

A year ago, if we are thinking about Iraq now, it was just a dream that we thought, as Iraqis, where they are in exile, would never come true. But, you know, after leaving to Iraq this past June and seeing the country -- seeing my country after 12 years, it was really different to be back again, trying to give back to the society, and also trying to help this society and this country emerging from what they’ve been through in the past 35 years to a new Iraq and their lives.

You see now people are talking freely, acting freely, traveling freely, debating, experimenting, and practicing, you know, their life just as normal people. That’s right. There are a lot of things that’s not stable. For example, the security problem is an issue, but, at the same time, you see people inside. And, I spoke to so many people, and they told me this: That at least at night when they go to sleep, they feel that they are -- the previous regime is no longer existing and Saddam is no longer there, so at least they feel safe inside.

The big picture there is, as we all see how things are developing in Iraq, certainly there is a big, big difference between six months ago or seven months ago and now. You see life going to normal, and people are -- the important thing is the fear is not there anymore.

But, there is still a struggle going on in this new freedom, not just the Fedayeen and troops, not just debate over the election process, but there are also many other things that still need to be -- that still is a struggle inside Iraqi society, a struggle for the heart of ordinary people, not elite. The struggle is for the future of Iraqi civil society.

Can we keep our freedom, or we will lose for the forces of terror and hatred? I’m saying this because I -- or I have this question because I saw in the past few months things that I am, as an Iraqi, I don’t wish that my country that’s just emerging from the dictatorship of the past 35 years facing a new struggle right now, and this struggle is big.

Iraqis want to live just like any ordinary nation. Ordinary people live in peace and harmony, but all forces of terrorism and extremism and hated does not allow these people to live normally.

I was surprised to see an office for Hamas in Nasiriyah and also a Hezbollah office in Basra and Safwan. I was shocked to see their flag and their sign there, and I was wondering, ‘What is going on?’ Do we, as an Iraqi people, who are just emerging from the terror of Saddam after 35 years, we need this in our country? These political wings of these parties, they are working there, trying to recruit people there, trying to focus on the young generation and the youth, and having their seminars, their ideologies, their ideas that they want to control people.

So, the question is: Don’t the CPA or the authority there know about these offices that’s open in this part of the country? And, is this part of democracy? We need to put some limit, especially now, because the country is just emerging from a very difficult period of time. And, we need democracy, but also we need to keep our people safe.

I’ve seen these few offices or buildings opening in Iraq, and we are not -- what we want there is just for people to start rebuilding our life, for the younger generation to develop their thoughts and ideas based on education, based on peace, based on harmony with other ethnicities in Iraq. And, having certainly such groups in Iraq does not help people or help the children emerging from, you know, the bad period and facing now a new struggle with these groups.

So, what worries me is that the people won’t get an opportunity to enjoy their freedom if these groups -- with a group like that, they do have power and they do exist in the country. And, for groups like this, it’s been banded in Europe and the USA -- in the U.S. And, why it’s allowed in Iraq? Why do they have, you know -- why -- I mean, because the country is still under a struggle, and so many things need to be developed, so many things. There are a lot of areas that need to be taken care of in terms of not only education and health and building a civil society as well. Empowering women is one of the issues definitely that we need to focus on as well.

So, these people or these groups are controlling the minds of this young generation and trying to impose their ideas and thoughts, and using these kids because of their need of money or many other things, and paying them what they want, and then asking them to do things to damage the country, not really to rebuild it.

I am worried about the young generation growing up under these views and this kind of party. And, what we need, we need the skills, we need jobs and civil society skills to teach these young adults. And, they need to be able to focus on something productive to build their new life, not destroy it in another form, not in the name of their religion or in the name of extremist political causes.

We need a lot of things to be developed there. One of these things is as simple as a youth center for these kids, who can be educated, who can, you know, use their energy and mind and thoughts and ideas and put it in something to try to help them build their future, especially now. Iraq is an open society now. They have free trade. They have this, they have that, and these kids need to be emerging from what they have been taught in the past, to a new era, to a new world of freedom and democracy. And, as I said, these kinds of groups, they are outreaching, and they are trying to recruit these young teens and work with them.

The other -- this is one of the aspects that we are right now facing. I am working on education there in Iraq, and part of it is -- I cannot talk in detail much about the project, but I can give a summary about it. We are bringing the children -- they left school, out-of-school children who left school for a long time, and most of them now are young adults -- bringing them back to school, combining two school years in one year, so they can finish these two years, and they follow me if they can go back to the normal schools.

In the beginning, we had a struggle with their families, because most of these kids are working in the street or working as a mechanic or somewhere in the market. The family wants them to work, so they can support their families. But, we try to, you know, talk to parents, trying to convince them that education is the key, and it’s very important for their children to be educated. In the beginning, the resentment was big, but now if you see the queue of the line of moms bringing their children to these centers, it’s amazing.

Last week -- not last week. Two weeks ago, before I came to the states, I had -- I was visiting one of our centers -- education centers for these kids. And, a young person, who 21 years old, came to me, and she said, "Can you accept me in the center?" I said, ‘Well, this is for a certain age group, and you are 21, and these are, you know, kids from 9 until about 16 or 18.’ She said, "Please, all what I want is to learn how to read and write. I don’t mind sitting with the first grade kids. Just please, let me be in the class." I couldn’t just stop her and tell her no. Somebody who is really eager and would like to learn and wants to learn, we cannot just stop them and tell them, no, we cannot accept you.

I was on another visit to another site, and there was a kid in the class who was about 16, 17 years old. And he said, "Please, Ms. Zainab, I have three of my friends, but they are older than me. Can you accept them in the program?" And I said, ‘Unfortunately, we have a certain number to accept these kids in these programs.’

But, you know, they need -- you know, these kids, who were refusing in the past coming or their families refused, now they are coming to learn. So, I asked them a question. I said, ‘Why you want to learn? Why are you so eager in the beginning? In the beginning, you were refusing to do such a thing, or you don’t want to -- you are skeptical about being in the school, or you want to come to school and this and that.’ They said, "Because now we see -- you know, we see the whole country is changing. Everyone is looking for the person who is educated, who can speak English. You know, all of these companies coming to the country, all of this organization, all of this humanization organization, and we would like to improve ourselves.

You know, until then, I’m going to sell plastic back on the street. I want to be something. I want to be educated. I heard about something called the university, but I haven’t seen it or any one of my family. So, I’m hoping that I can go there one day."

These kinds of projects we need to develop, and we need to save our children and our youth there and to focus on this kind of project.

So, since I have been in Iraq in the past seven months, I saw a different attitude in these people between how they refused in the past and how they are accepting these things easily now, how this change comes to these parents, who they rejected us in the beginning, but now they are accepting us and then willing to work with us and accept such a project and program. And also, we’re compromising with them and letting their kids working for a few hours, but at the time they get their education.

One other problem that we have or we are dealing with now is women empowerment, and this is another issue that we are focusing on in Iraq. There are a lot of debates, a lot of women groups. They trying to do something, to make a change, but has me involved with these groups and trying to help this women’s issue or helping women to get their rights and what they need inside the country, empowering them in terms of the political aspect and the upcoming election. It’s not an easy task, especially with all of these forces that they don’t want women to participate in such a process.

We held a meeting -- a women’s conference in Hilla in the heart of Iraq last October, and about 400 women came from five or six different cities there. And, we talked about many different things. We held workshops about women organizations and about politics and about participating in the political process and the election. And also, about, you know, how culture affects our life as Iraqis and as not only Iraqis, but as women and culture and religion.

So, I was presenting in the conference, and I spoke about separating state and religion. This subject, opening it by itself was a big shock for so many women there. Here they are, I was the only woman who was from the organizers who was wearing a scarf, of course, and they recognized my last name being from a prominent religious family there. For them, my ideas were just typical, ordinary ideas.

But, when I opened the subject of separating state and religion, it was a big shock. Some of them, they were very excited to hear such a thing, because they think that when we talk about such an important, sensitive subject, it’s going to open up for more discussions and more ideas that they can generate. And also, they can have the privacy of practicing their religion and have the politics being aside and dealt with in another matter.

For some other groups of women, they felt it threatening. If it’s coming from probably somebody from outside, who does not have the link to them, who does not look like them, it was OK. But, if it’s coming from a person, who is kind of religious, but talking in a different perspective, it was kind of not easy for them to accept and to adjust.

So, at the beginning, we spoke about that. I talked about this, and the conversation and the discussion became really very strong. I mean, back and forth, back and forth. I felt so bad for the two other speakers, who were with me on the panel, because I was the last speaker. But, no one even bothered to ask them any questions, but we spent, like, 45 minutes after the time of the actual panel just discussing this issue.

Of course, the conservative group of these women, they were attacking me in the beginning. And then, after we finished the panel, one of them came to me and she started -- just like they send their special investigator to me to ask me some questions about how knowledgeable I am about my religion. So, I was sitting with them, talking to them and telling them all what I know, and they were just so impressed. They didn’t see, like, with my answers to them any mistakes or anything that could -- you know, could have another thought in their mind.

And, one of them came to me, and she said, "You know what? You are a very nice person and very supole simple, and you know about religion." And I said, "Well, I’m not attacking your religion. I’m not attacking anybody here. All what I am talking about is an idea, and we can discuss ideas. I have my thoughts; you have your thoughts. That doesn’t mean we have to be enemies if we have different ideas. And this shows you the first of how democracy can be practiced in a country. And, today your debate to me, when I gave you my idea and talked about it, and you talked about that idea, this was the best -- this is the basic form of democracy is how to listen to each other." And she said, "Oh, is that what they call democracy?" And I said, "Well, this is one form of democracy, but there are many other, you know, aspects and rules and regulations."

She said -- and I said, ‘Can I ask’ -- I told that lady can I ask her a question. ‘You attacked me aggressively when I was giving my talk. So, can you tell me why you do that?’ She said, "Can I tell you between me and you?" And I said, "Okay." She said, "I come from a very religious city." And I said, "Okay, I understand that." And she said, "The group that I know there are very, very religious, and they are not going to allow such a thing. So, they were looking at me, so I can go and start talking and attack you, and that’s what I did. But, I am so sorry. You are such a wonderful person." And, I said, "Okay, it’s not a matter of I’m a wonderful person or not, but I just want to know why the idea." And she said, "Because I’m afraid. I’m afraid if I didn’t do that, then my family would get hurt or somebody from -- you know, they don’t put me in this group of women, or I don’t get any benefits."

So, that’s really, you know, affected me deeply that even though Saddam is gone and the regime has changed, but we actually -- some people are still in fear, still under the control of some groups and some authorities there. Many other issues that come up, and some of these stories and many other stories look like that in the country.

I remember a few weeks ago I held a town hall meeting for women in the south that was in Basra, and one woman stood up. And, we were talking about the political process, democracy, and women’s rights and how we can improve it. And, she said, "I am afraid right now, because I cannot walk in the streets and feeling safe like I was before." And I said, ‘What’s the problem?’ She said, "Because I am not covered. My hair is not covered."

This is another issue that we’re now facing, and that’s why people are not -- you know, and there is a very strong, like, religion phase now that many people who are religious are trying to practice it to the end, which is not a problem if they keep this thing.

You know, in my opening, practicing religion is something private and not imposing it on other people, that will be OK. But, actually trying to impose this and the practice of religion on many other women and doing it in the society in general. Many teachers in the schools, they’ve been threatened that if they don’t wear a headscarf, then there will be a problem for them.

This is also another kind of struggle that we are facing. Yes, that’s right, the country is improving, a lot of ideas, a lot of new things, but a lot of, you know, civil societies struggle that way on issues that we are still dealing with in Iraq.

I am optimistic. I think things are going to get better, but we need time. We need a lot of effort to improve these kinds of ideas by educating people, not only women, not only youth, but, you know, the people of society in general, by holding seminars, by workshops, also having organizations participating in educating these people, and opening youth centers, women’s centers, it’s going to have a big effect on their ideas and thoughts. Having programs, for example, on TV that deal with these issues openly, it’s going to improve a lot.

So, I will stop here, and I will be happy to answer some questions. Thank you very much.

MR. FRADKIN: Thanks very much, Zainab.

MS. AL-SUWAIJ: Sure.

MR. FRADKIN: I’m going to call on everyone shortly.

I do want to take the liberty of asking the first question, and it’s a question that’s inspired partially by what you certain things you described, and partially a question that’s come up in the past. And that is, there’s an understanding of democracy, according to which it is largely something very categorical, which is in the process -- a number of speakers in the past have, in this room, said that one of the difficulties within the Muslim context is a lack of -- is a lack of experience with not only appreciation, but a lack of experience of what they have tended to call the "democratic ethos" or "democratic habits" of the sort that you’ve just described before, the notion that (inaudible) dispute with someone without taking their heads off.

MS. AL-SUWAIJ: That’s right.

MR. FRADKIN: And that this -- and it’s not surprising that there should be a problem. It’s certainly not surprising after 35 years of tyranny, which encouraged entirely different habits. But, the question, I guess, is, from out of the experience over the last six or seven months, do you see specific ways in which that can be encouraged? And, are there things you say that others, including non-Muslims, can do to help out in that regard?

MS. AL-SUWAIJ: Well, definitely. The door is now open to anybody who wants to come and make a difference, join a group or any organization or institute they would like. Iraqi now is going through an era. I can describe it as there is a big vacuum and lack of information and literature. So, whatever is going to be there on the ground, people can take it. Like, it’s going to be like a sponge, and they can absorb it.

They need some more information. They need some more -- to hear more from other people’s experiences to learn more. Whether Muslim or non-Muslim, it doesn’t matter. But, this is, I think, it’s very needed at this time. And, you know, anyone who can give something, I encourage them to go there. We could help. Other people could help and could encourage these kinds of activities.

As I mentioned before, some people really don’t know. They hear about democracy. Many of them, they do hear about democracy, but they don’t know what it is. Like, we need -- I’m always talking that we need a 101 democracy class everywhere. You know, people hear the word, listening to it, but they don’t know what the meaning of it. Or, what they know is probably you can talk freely. You can say whatever you want, hurting other people or not, you know, describing and things like that. But, all what they know is this form of democracy, and that’s it. But, they need more education definitely and more care and more workshops and seminars about this kind of thing.

MR. FRADKIN: When you ask your question, would you please identify yourselves? We do actually make a transcript of the whole proceedings, and then we try to edit it for the benefits of others. So, please give your name and identification.

Let me start at the back with Phil Costopoulos.

MR. PHIL COSTOPOULOS: First, welcome back to Washington, and thanks for coming to speak to us again. I’m Phil Costopoulos from the National Endowment for Democracy.

I’d like to ask you to clarify and maybe extend what you opened with, which was your shock at seeing Hamas and Hezbollah operating openly in Iraq. I heard you mention, I thought, if I understood correctly, three cites: Basra, Nasiriyah and Safwan.

MS. AL-SUWAIJ: Safwan is a border city between Basra and Kuwait.

MR. COSTOPOULOS: I see. And, are you saying you saw --.

MS. AL-SUWAIJ: -- Building.

MR. COSTOPOULOS: Each group has a public office in each one of those cities?

MS. AL-SUWAIJ: Yes.

MR. COSTOPOULOS: Are you aware of any other ones?

MS. AL-SUWAIJ: These are three that I’ve seen.

MR. COSTOPOULOS: So, a total of six now? Each group with one office in each of the three cities?

MS. AL-SUWAIJ: I saw Hamas, they have one office in Nasiriyah, but in Basra I saw two offices for Hezbollah.

MR. COSTOPOULOS: If you could just tell us a little bit more about how long have they been there?

MS. AL-SUWAIJ: I’ve seen their --.

MR. COSTOPOULOS: -- What do the authorities know about them (inaudible)? I’d just like to know everything you know about this.

MS. AL-SUWAIJ: Yeah. Well, I’ve seen --.

MR. COSTOPOULOS: -- It’s disturbing news that I have not previously heard --.

MS. AL-SUWAIJ: -- It is. It is actually. I was struck to see it. I was coming from Kuwait to Iraq, and here in this small town of the border, I see a building for Hezbollah with their flag and their big sign saying Hezbollah headquarter, or whatever, in Safwan. And, they’ve been there apparently for about maybe four months, three or four months, something like that. And, they’ve been having different sorts of activities. I am not really aware of details about it. But, I asked, and they said, yes, they do have, you know, like, seminars and things like that when they bring some people, and they do have meetings. What do they say in these meetings? I don’t know.

And, you know, the building is well, you know, secured with guards and their weapons and everything. And, I’m not sure -- I mean, the authorities, they must know about it, I mean, CPA or the coalition forces in these areas, because here they are with their sign and their flag and everything, and especially in the city, because it’s on the border. So, always there are coalition forces and people going back and forth to Kuwait -- between Kuwait and Iraq. So, you know, I have no idea.

MR. FRADKIN: Yes, sir.

MR. STEVE DASGUL: I’m Steve Dasgul. I’m with ACGA.

I had a couple of thoughts that I heard when you were talking about how you’re trying to outreach to the population in work and education, and I just want to ask you if you’ve given any thought to these types of approaches. One is, you obviously have a lot more people, young people seeking education than you can accommodate.

MS. AL-SUWAIJ: That’s right.

MR. DASGAL: Have you considered trying to do a -- instead of teaching the teachers concepts, empowering these young people to encourage them and help them to train their siblings and others in their neighborhoods who haven’t been able to get into the programs? That’s a technique that’s been used elsewhere successfully.

And the other thing is something out of U.S. history from almost two centuries ago. In the young American democracy, there was a big movement in the 1820s to have local private education and discussion groups. These were for adults, and people would read a book and talk about it, or just discuss issues out of the newspaper. And, it was kind of a learning process to learn how to share ideas and, you know, be able to have different ideas without being confrontational and, you know, developing friendships even with people with different ideas. Have you thought about doing something like that as a local action type thing?

MS. AL-SUWAIJ: Well, that’s a very good idea. Actually, there are some groups. They do meet, but mainly the education or whatever that’s been dealt with there is religion education only, and it’s nothing beyond that. And, first, because they don’t have the materials, and, second, that there is no such movement in Iraq that deals with this kind of education. Yeah, if I have, you know, the staff or I find that I can do that, I will help pursue such a project.

And also, for the children that you mentioned, these kids, even if we are trying to educate them and do the same thing with them, these kids, they are -- you know, their families are barely allowing them to come to the classroom to learn. And, the rest of the time they use it in, you know, going back to their jobs and to the market, and they don’t have the resources to do such a thing, you know, at a society level, unfortunately.

MR. DASGAL: (Inaudible) just material resources. As you probably know, there have been some Web sites established, typically by the commanders of local military units, who have adopted schools and other things --.

MS. AL-SUWAIJ: -- That’s right.

MR. DASGAL: And have solicited aid. I know of a couple of such cases, and they’ve been rather successful in getting packages through apparently faster than the CPA itself can get supplies. Have you or other people involved in the work that you try to do the same? And, is that a reasonable approach to some of these problems?

MS. AL-SUWAIJ: Actually it is. And --.

MR. DASGAL: -- It’s another way of saying can we advertise a Web site of yours where we can send things?

MS. AL-SUWAIJ: Well, definitely, sending things is a great idea. We are under our contract. We cannot accept everything. But, our -- this contract, especially with education, we can’t. But, we can -- as an organization we can help you in delivering these materials to the kids in other schools not necessarily involved in the same program that we are in. So, it is a great idea. If there are some materials that we can use to give to other children or young adults, that would be wonderful.

MR. FRADKIN: Yes, Peter.

MR. PETER SKERRY: I’m Peter Skerry. I teach political science at Boston College.

You alluded to the problems of getting parents to send their children to schools if they’re dependent upon income that the children are earning. Now, that’s a familiar problem in lots of developing societies. It’s even a problem in the United States among struggling and economically marginal immigrant groups. I’m just wondering, is there something specific or -- to the culture of Iraq, or specific to Islamic culture, like the women and like -- but maybe other things that make this problem particularly difficult and particularly unique to the aspects of this problem in Iraq?

MS. AL-SUWAIJ: Well, I used to live in Iraq 12 years ago, and we did have, you know, we had, of course, some problems with literacy and stuff like that. But, the problem is not as big as now, because of the economy as well, when people, they do not have enough money. And, when we did an inventory -- survey did a survey on these children, why did they left school, in about eight different cities and especially in the poor neighborhoods. And, the first reason that came out was donating money to schools. The government did not spend any money and asking the children always to give money back to schools. And, the family has five kids and each one has to pay then. So, most of their parents, they told us that it’s --.

MR. FRADKIN: -- This was in the period before the war.

MS. AL-SUWAIJ: Yes. That was the period before the war. And last year, between 2002 and 2003, the government spent only about three million dollar on education country-wide. Meanwhile, they spent about $19 billion on Republican Guards. So, they asked always the students to pay money, and, of course, they cannot afford it. So, it’s the best benefit to go work in the street than having their kids go to school.

And so, that was -- the problem was not as big as now. In the past, 12 years ago, the problem was with especially young teens, men, because they made them fail on purpose, because they want to take them to the army to drop them. But, now they are doing that voluntarily by the fact, dropping school for two reasons. One is an economy reason, and the second one is they’ve got to go to the army anyway, so they don’t vision ourselves as going to college or, more importantly, their lives or anything.

UNIDENTIFIED MAN: (Inaudible).

MS. AL-SUWAIJ: Well, Iraq in the past has the highest educated population in the Middle East, and this number had dropped down dramatically in the past 12-15 years. So, most of the country was educated, and why it dropped back in this period and stuff. Yeah, culture has some -- some things to add to it as, but not as significant as other reasons are. As a matter of fact, the thing is now that we have children going back to school, and they want to be back in school, but also, you know, they have the lack of, you know, resources at schools and stuff like that that’s stopping them.

MR. FRADKIN: At schools, it partially depends upon what one means by culture. I mean, if we’re talking about the late Saddam culture for the last 15 years, there was clearly, by your account, a specific effort to -- or the specific result of certain steps he took was to transform what had been sort of an educationally-striving society into one which was quite different.

Haleh.

MS. HALEH ESFANDIARI: Haleh Esfandiari from the Wilson Center.

Zainab, two quick questions. What sort of budget is at your disposal, and what are your plans to expand what you are doing, No. 1? And, are there any religious schools, especially in the Shiite area, that are attracting, you know, especially girls?

MS. AL-SUWAIJ: For girls right now, they try -- there are no specific, like I can say, schools, but there are groups. They are trying to form groups in every -- especially in the southern area. And, these groups, they are trying to teach the girls, or the young girls, you know, Islam and religion and how important it is. And, actually, they are going a little bit far with it. I mean, not like the standard that’s understood, but they want to follow -- they want to go to every, like, small details in their religion. And, they want these girls to understand it, to follow it, just like it’s the kind of reaction to what’s happened in the past, like during Saddam’s period they were banned from practicing their ritual and their, you know, religion and all of that. And now, they are like, yeah, we can. We can. As far as we can do it, we’re going to do it.

So, these things are existing. It’s there. I’ve seen it. I’ve heard about many other -- other groups that they are forming now, and their main purpose is on this type of education. And, I think they are also trying their best if they can impose it in schools. And, until now, nothing’s happened like that, but informal education is actually -- actually there.

And, the budget for such -- it varies between area level. I mean, we can, if you’re interested, we can talk more in detail about that.

MS. SESADIM HASHMIN: My name is Sesadim Hashmi (sp), and I’m from Pakistan. A salaam a leyku.

I just want to know about, you know, is there any grassroots level political organization working in Iraq right now? And, if there is any, how strong it is? And, what happened to the entire Saddam organization or political parties? What they are doing for political mobilization, you know? Thank you.

MS. AL-SUWAIJ: Actually, there are many political groups and parties right now in Iraq. Sometimes they are, like, way beyond imagination. Every five people getting together, they name themselves a party. And, you go there, on every corner you see a house or a building or, you know, a flat, like such and such party, such and such party, you know. So, this is coming up very, you know, strongly.

And, some of them, they are trying to work with people. Some of them, you know, in the beginning, they, like as I said as a reaction to what’s been before from the previous government, now they are trying to do it themselves. Like, oh, yeah, we have the freedom, so we can do it. They get involved in it for a few weeks or a few months, and then they just get tired of everything and just leave it, and they don’t continue.

Some of the political parties are very strong. We have about 67 major political parties that they are in the country and there to try to work with the people. They are present in every city. And, also they are, you know, holding some projects and programs. That’s what’s available right now there, but, I mean, other than that, I don’t really know.

UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: I’m also with the Woodrow Wilson Center.

Zainab, two questions regarding education. The organization you work with works both on rehabilitation in terms of the reconstruction of the schools, but then also the development of the curriculum.

MS. AL-SUWAIJ: That’s right.

UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: When I was in Iraq -- I left at the end of August -- a lot of the organization was being done through CPA, the Ministry of Education, and UNICEF. Well, now UNICEF is no longer there --.

MS. AL-SUWAIJ: -- That’s right.

UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: A small national staff. Who is doing the coordinating?

And, in terms of the curriculum development, I understood that was going to be done in conjunction with UNICEF, the Ministry of Education and RISE (sp). And so, how is that developing?

And then, also, what is your relationship with the other organizations, like Bechtel and some of the other bigger companies that are being charged with doing the rehabilitation and reconstruction? I’m just trying to see if there is a disconnect, or if the coordination that was envisioned is still ongoing.

MS. AL-SUWAIJ: We don’t have any direct relations with Bechtel. Our project, we are subcontracting from USAID to develop the education system. And, part of it was in the beginning, you know, we were going to get involved with the curriculum. But now, the curriculum basically was handed to CPA and the Ministry of Education, and they are going to decide what’s in the curriculum. And, they are using some of the books that’s been published by UNICEF. So, these books have been used for this year, and also they are developing the curriculums for the upcoming year if they can finish it by the end of the school year this year.

Many other organizations, as you mentioned, UNICEF, they were working on education, but they were working on elementary schools, and they were working on secondary and high schools. And so, after UNICEF left everything, they handed to the Ministry of Education basically, in conjunction with the CPA, and they’re working together to do that.

MS. MARGARET LITVIN: I am Margaret Litvin with the Culture of Lawfulness Project.

I wanted to ask you what’s being done between the school education effort you described and the work that you talked about with the women. I mean, what sort of -- if there’s anything in the formal education system that’s being done, and what you think could realistically be done to teach democracy skills and some understanding of what democracy requires inside classrooms, rule-making and legal reasoning.

MS. AL-SUWAIJ: I think this, right now, in terms of schools and the curriculum in the schools nothing has been changed so far for this year. They are basically using the same books that they’ve been using last year, except the social science books or civic education that they’ve been -- that’s been taken out of the curriculum this year.

And, the rest of the books are just ripping Saddam’s picture and whatever he says in the beginning, like a few pages in the beginning of each book, and continuing studying in the same book. Even some of the kids in the beginning of the -- they started asking -- some of them, they come back home and the teacher asked them to tear out the picture of Saddam, and asking their parents because they are scared. Like, it’s OK to rip Saddam’s picture out of the book. So, it was --.

MR. FRADKIN: -- It may set a bad precedent, defacing textbooks, and some people have to encourage them.

MS. AL-SUWAIJ: So, right now, we’re hoping that some of the, you know, teaching about democracy, about freedom, about human rights is going to be substituting about civic education that we are hoping that it’s going to be the new -- you know, the new modification of the civics side. But, I don’t know if anything like that is happening right now or not, unfortunately.

MS. LITVEN: Thank you.

MR. FRADKIN: Walter Berns -- oh, I’m sorry. OK. Max and then Walter.

MR. MAX SINGER: Max Singer, Hudson Institute.

I wondered if I could ask you two brief questions. One is, were you able to estimate or get any sense of the degree to which Hamas and Hezbollah were dependent on and the result of foreign financing and organization as distinguished from local? And second, I wondered if you could say something about how your extended family is responding to what you’re doing.

MS. AL-SUWAIJ: That’s --.

MR. FRADKIN: -- That’s another way of saying, has anyone told your grandfather what you’re up to?

MS. AL-SUWAIJ: Well, these groups, as I understood the question, correct me if I’m wrong, they are, right now -- if you are asking if they are getting any support from the -- they are coming with their own money, because certainly there is no money inside the country that can help them. And, they are trying to buy people with the money that they have, because no one wants to give money, while the country is going in a transitional period. And, this is how they’ve been performing the past few months.

And, for my family, it’s difficult for them to accept. Not like they’re stopping me from doing anything, but they do want to understand what I am exactly doing. Especially when I was in Iraq, I was -- you know, I was in high school. I was -- but also, I guess, the government, and I was taking very strong positions against the government. But right now, they want to understand what kind of work that I’m doing. And so, I explained to them about the education, but I think this empowering women, they have some issues with.

UNIDENTIFIED MAN: (Inaudible).

MS. AL-SUWAIJ: My grandfather has some issues with that. My parents are OK. You know, they believe whatever I want to do I can do, but my grandfather has some certain concerns.

MR. WALTER BERNS: I would like to know everything you know about the state of the university -- the faculty, students, library, curriculum. Anything you can say about the university.

MS. AL-SUWAIJ: Universities have been opened again. That was in September. Unfortunately, some of the universities in the south had been looted, and some of the technical institutes that, you know, most of the kids they are getting to if they can get high scores in high school. I know the one in Basra has not been functioning. We only have, like, three or four -- about 3,000 students.

The university, for example, in Basra in the south and Baghdad has been -- you know, students have been going there every day, but they do have some problems. And, security is an issue for them in attending schools. Sometimes people with explosives come to the schools and try to, you know, set up arms or something like that.

A lot of discussions go here and there in these universities, and some of them, they are trying to work very hard to develop some, like, student centers and student unions and stuff like that. But, the lack of funding that they have is stopping them from doing that.

Also, they do need, for example, books. There’s a big need for literature, and they need to know, they need to read more about what’s going on in the world. They need to know. You know, basic, simple books that they -- you know, that every university should have, they don’t have it basically. So, they can get the textbooks that they study with, but that’s about it.

MR. FRADKIN: Related to that, would you say something about to the extent you know what the state of affairs is with the religious higher education institutions --.

MS. AL-SUWAIJ: -- Well.

MR. FRADKIN: Are they continuing as they were prior to the war? Or, are there changes there?

MS. AL-SUWAIJ: There are changes. Now, of course, when you --.

MR. FRADKIN: -- I know they don’t come under the administration of the Ministry of Higher Education.

MS. AL-SUWAIJ: That’s right.

MR. FRADKIN: They’re just simply --.

MS. AL-SUWAIJ: -- That’s right. Right now, they are separated. The Shiites, of course, they went back to Najaf, opening all of the schools that’s been closed before, and that’s how they teach their students. And, a lot of the students, just like before, like thirty years ago when Najaf was the center for religious education in the Shia tradition, now it’s coming back with the same force again, and people are trying to open more schools, especially in their houses and all of that.

For the Sunnis, they do have the same schools, but their schools were always associated with the government, and so it’s different.

I’m not so sure if they are still at the same (inaudible), and they are going through the same process of education. I think the Ministry of Higher Education, they are still supporting the Sunni schools, but they are waiting to see what’s going to happen with it for next year.

MR. TODD DEATHERAGE: Todd Deatherage with the State Department of the Office of International Registry.

You mentioned after suffering years of such brutal repression, the need to have a better understanding, a more fully informed understanding of a democratic ethos. And, particularly, what are your thoughts on how people in Iraq feel about religious freedom, commitment to religious freedom? Because there definitely are minority religions in Iraq in substantial numbers. What’s the sort of the basic understanding of the people of Iraq on what that means and how that will play out in a new government, in a new society?

MS. AL-SUWAIJ: Well, in the past, as we all know, there was no freedom of religion. Now, we have the majority of the people, they are trying to, like, to impose or to control everything as a reaction to what’s happened in the past. Fairly, I can say there are some -- like, they do, like, work together, but not in a very high -- I can say a very high skill. No, but there is some interaction between communities. But, as we say, freedom of religion, as we understand it here, I think it’s too early to determine that in Iraq right now.

MR. DEATHERAGE: Obviously, different religious communities have a major impact on this, and then are a number of people who have no religion at all.

MS. AL-SUWAIJ: That’s right.

MR. DEATHERAGE: And, obviously those folks will weigh in with an opinion. And, I’m just -- I mean, we try to follow this very closely, and there seems to be disagreement within the Shia religious community, for instance. There is sort of a full range of opinions --.

MS. AL-SUWAIJ: -- That’s right.

MR. DEATHERAGE: Among Shia Islamic thinking in terms of freedom of religion, and then you have a number of secular leaders, who also have sort of maybe more expansive years of religious freedom even still.

MS. AL-SUWAIJ: That’s right.

MR. DEATHERAGE: It’s an important concept, and I don’t know how much it’s being debate on the ground over there. I mean, are people in Iraq talking about this?

MS. AL-SUWAIJ: They --.

MR. DEATHERAGE: -- There is some concern when you hear people -- as you said, people have sort of gone to the extreme in some cases. Everybody is enjoying their religious freedom now, but some are trying to force women to cover. Even non-Muslim women are, you know, being asked in some situations to wear the hijab and so forth. Are people discussing this openly now?

MS. AL-SUWAIJ: Well, as I told you about this incident that happened, and this lady came up and she started talking about it. I think for some other religious minority there, some of them are not feeling very comfortable about having these religious people coming and telling you have to cover or whatever you have to do. It’s been discussed, but in a very narrow area. It’s not been widely open right now.

I attended a couple of conferences talking about religion and peace and how to try to live together. I mean, they’ve been living together for the past hundreds of years, but now the situation is different. In one of these two conferences, there was an open discussion between a Christian father and another Sabean (sp) person, they call them Mandaen (sp) in Iraq. And, they started talking about their differences.

Basically, the Mandaen people, they published an article in one of the newspapers saying, you know, they don’t believe in any other religion except their religion and things like that. So, the reaction from this father was really, you know, "Why are you saying these things about us?" And, the other person just kept quiet. He did not answer any of his questions or any of his concerns.

Meanwhile, at the same time, you see people would like to have such an opportunity to talk, but still it’s -- I think we’re in the early stage to talk about that. I wished that we had the opportunity, or the people would care to talk about these things. But, in my opinion -- I could be wrong -- I see many people just trying to avoid such subjects right now.

MR. DEATHERAGE: Are there things the CPA could be doing that they’re not perhaps that could encourage, (a), inter-religious cooperation and dialogue, and, (b), just a better understanding of what religious freedom and tolerance really means?

MS. AL-SUWAIJ: Definitely. Definitely, I think this could happen, and we could hold a conference or, you know, a seminar, or even a TV program to educate people about that, to have open discussion or debate between this group and the other group and have them talk about the subject. I think it would be very helpful.

MR. FRADKIN: This reminds me of the fact that -- and I don’t remember the name of the institution, though I think it was in Hilla -- that someone decided to start, ostensibly, a Shiite institution, which would be devoted to looking at Islam civilizationally, and it was supposed to offer a whole new curriculum of religious study that other different -- I mean, that it would be very solid in its presentation of Islamic history and Islamic theology, but it would be very different in somehow the format and feel compared to a traditional madrasa or something like that. Is this -- this didn’t --.

MS. AL-SUWAIJ: -- No, I don’t think --.

MR. FRADKIN: -- If you haven’t noticed it, it probably didn’t fly.

MS. AL-SUWAIJ: At this point, no.

MR. FRADKIN: Okay.

MS. AL-SUWAIJ: I don’t think so.

MR. FRADKIN: It was -- in the constant e-mail, the world of e-mail, it was given a lot of attention, it seemed to me, for 36 hours, and then it disappeared. And so -- yes, Ladan.

MS. LADAN BOROUMAND: My name is Ladan Boroumand from Boroumand Foundation for the Promotion of Human Rights and Democracy in Iran. Thank you for your presentation. You know how interested we are in what is going on in Iraq, and many Iranians are watching it there.

My question to you is a few months ago, Khomeini’s grandson came here, and his project was to set up an institute precisely in Iraq, where the theological basis for the separation of religion and state would be developed. Has he done this? Is he successful? And, are the security situation -- is the security situation safe enough for him to implement this project?

MS. AL-SUWAIJ: Well, I haven’t heard that he did or he started such a project yet. The last word I heard that he was back in Iran last week. And, he was there. He was -- I met with him a few times, and he was -- the security situation is actually -- if he wants to start such a thing, probably it’s going to make -- you know, it’s a little bit sensitive subject for many leaders there, religious leaders there. Not all of them, but some of them.

And, it could be started. You know, we have always the idea, you know, you have to start somewhere. So, it could be, especially now when the country is going through a lot of changes and a lot of things. I think it could happen, but I didn’t hear that he already established or started anything like that yet.

MR. FRADKIN: I should say at this juncture in response to your interest, Ladan, we have the good fortune of having Zainab’s husband here today, Ahmed al-Rahim.

And, you were involved a bit in the visit here of Khomeini’s grandson. Do you want to say something about that? Yeah.

MR. AHMED AL-RAHIM: I would just say that it’s sort of a historical irony that Khomeini’s grandson is now in Iraq developing these ideas when his grandfather had developed the idea of (inaudible) first in Najaf. And, as far as I know, he works very closely with Ayad Jamanadin (sp), who’s an Iraqi cleric, who spent a great deal of time in the United Arab Emirates and was at the Nasiriyah conference. This was the conference back in --.

MS. AL-SUWAIJ: -- March.

MR. AL-RAHIM: March. And, he stood up and sort of called for a separation and mosque and state.

And so, they work very closely together. Unfortunately, they haven’t -- Ayad Jamanadine (sp) hasn’t gotten the kind of attention that other Shia religious leaders have, and I think the main reason is that his own ideas about separation of religion and state don’t fall in within the categories of how the U.S. sees Shias, because for a long time they have lumped the Iraqi Shiites in with the Iranians as being radical and could set up an Islamic republic. That -- and he doesn’t fall within that category of Sisanti and (inaudible). Now, they look at the Iraqi Shiites as having a quiescent tradition, but yet he is also separate from that.

So, it’s possible that they could set up this institute. My sense is that he -- Saed Aya Jamanadine (sp) is his mentor and gets many of his ideas from him, but we’ll see what happens, whether he is able to make it back into Iraq.

MS. BOROUMAND: Do you think he should be helped with this project? Isn’t it important to have that even if it’s very new? Because, you know, the idea of secularism would be new and would need theological development anyway.

MR. AL-RAHIM: I mean, I think he should be helped. I think one of his problems is he --.

MR. FRADKIN: -- Who are we speaking of now? Khomeini’s grandson --.

MR. AL-RAHIM: -- Khomeini’s grandson.

MR. FRADKIN: Or his --?

MR. AL-RAHIM: -- Hussein Khomeini.

MR. FRADKIN: OK.

MR. AL-RAHIM: I think one of his problems is that in talking about his grandfather and his grandfather’s theory for government, he often says that people misinterpret it, and, he’s not willing to confront the hard questions. And, I think if somebody is going to support him, he’s going to have to deal with those difficult questions.

MR. FRADKIN: Yes, Diane.

MS. DIANE CONOCCHIOLI: Thank you. I’m Diane Conocchioli from the Ethics and Public Policy Center.

Zainab, I was wondering perhaps if you could mention Ayatollah Sistani and his current relationship with the CPA, and what we can expect from him in the next six to eight months.

MS. AL-SUWAIJ: That’s a good question. Probably Ahmed should answer that question. No not really. Well, I think, right now Ayatollah Sistani is calling for an election for everyone to participate in. At this point, I think it’s very difficult to achieve or to get into such a thing. It’s an ideal. Yes, we all wish to have such a thing, but it’s hard as the situation there is not permitting and the time is really getting too close to the election process.

In the upcoming months, I think his idea is just, you know, hoping that the U.N. can get involved or do something on that matter, so it can help his idea and the process of it.

MR. FRADKIN: And since we’ve strayed into political -- oh, Ken.

MR. KEN GARDEN: So, I guess just a quick question. You know, you’ve discussed your experience in Iraq and your meetings with Iraqis as, you know, the experience of Iraqi meeting other Iraqis. And, I haven’t really gotten the sense for how you’re received as somebody who has American patronage. Has that ever become an issue?

MS. AL-SUWAIJ: Actually, when I -- since I came back until now, I haven’t seen anybody who is rejecting me for being outside in America as an issue. Sometimes they look at me like, where did you get these ideas from, you know. But, other than that, it’s been just OK. For me, personally, I didn’t have any problem.

MR. FRADKIN: I wanted just to -- since we got a little bit onto political questions, in the last -- I guess the last 10 days, there has been a formation of this Sunni political council. And, there have been various interpretations for that. In particular and then perhaps the most promising was that the Sunni community has decided this is all going to actually happen. I mean, that it all has happened, and it’s not a dream or a nightmare. And, that they have to now organize themselves to actually participate, which many people are interpreting as a favorable sign, notwithstanding the fact that they -- it’s clear that they’re still not happy about it. Is that your sense of things?

Or, another way of putting it is there -- I mean, the presentation in the press is typically that the Sunnites are extremely reluctant to face the fact that they are about, after 400 or 500 years, to lose absolute control of Iraq, and that this is, apart from various incidental things, what fuels their resistance in the triangle. This would seem to be sort of and is being taken to be hopeful. Is that your sense that the Sunnites are beginning to want to talk to other people outside of their community?

MS. AL-SUWAIJ: Well, I think this is a good sign now, because I think after the capturing of Saddam, it’s had a lot to make the people just want to from such a council. And, it is important, because they are part of Iraq and part of Iraqi society. That’s right. They used to be in control, and now it’s very difficult for them to understand the situation of not being the ultimate leaders in the country. But, I think that’s a hopeful sign that these people can -- they are going to be able to negotiate and talk and be part of the Iraqi society, because they are part of it.

MR. FRADKIN: One of the things -- if I may extend this a little bit. One of the things that has puzzled me a little bit about the Sunnite reaction, although we were talking about this earlier, the habits over a long time, that they seem not to have understood that you Shiites are so fractious that they ought to be able to play a kind of middle man’s role in genuine political, a democratic political system. But, that -- well, of course, that would still be a come-down from the position they had formerly held, but it would seem to make their prospects safer.

MS. AL-SUWAIJ: That’s right. That’s happening right now, and the ideas of people not, you know, looking at other groups or they’re like the majority of the country, it’s difficult to see them in one -- like the one whole picture, but they don’t understand that, even with the Shiites, and there are so many different groups and thoughts and schools and ideas.

MR. FRADKIN: We have time for a coupe more questions, but if not -- yes, one over here, and then.

MR. HASSIM MUBARAK: Hassim Mubarak (sp), I’m from the embassy of Egypt. And, first of all, I would like to thank Dr. Zainab for the excellent presentation that she has given us today.

My question is with regard to what you have mentioned in your speech, the growing intent of religion, and the people are going back to Islam, and how that relates to the perception of the people with regard to the CPA and the coalition forces there, and whether they perceive them as an occupying force or liberating forces. It looks to me that coming from this part of the world that it’s like a Catch-22. The perception of the nature of fallen forces there could be a unifying force with regard to people going back to religion, and that could be the solution for this. I don’t know. I’m guessing, but I look forward to your answer. Thank you.

MS. AL-SUWAIJ: OK, you’re welcome. The question you asked is -- the answer for that question. Right now in Iraq, in the past 12 years -- like, I’ll tell you first about what I have observed or what I’ve seen, and then I’ll answer the question.

When I came back, I saw, like, the religion movement is there. You can see, like more women wearing scarves than 10-12 years ago. I was surprised to see such a thing.

So, as people -- as the problems coming and the struggle during Saddam’s time and during the sanctions in the past 12 years (inaudible).

For them -- having been liberated from Saddam, for them, they consider having the coalition forces there as people who are these forces who came to liberate them from the previous regime and the Kurds as well. I mean, the Kurds in the north, who are Sunni, Shiites and Christian and Yezidis and a mix of religion, for some other people who had benefited from Saddam being in power. Of course, they’re looking at it as an occupying force, and they are there just to take oil from the country or this or that, and this how they look at it.

MR. FRADKIN: Thank you. Max, you want to ask -- OK. This must be the last question, because we have to get Zainab going.

MR. SINGER: I just wonder, do you get a feel for how much a political figure, like Ahmad Chalabi who was outside the country for a long time, is accepted as a legitimate political leader or a potential political leader.

MS. AL-SUWAIJ: Well, on this point, I cannot really say whether he is. He is definitely there. He is working with his party and his followers. Yeah, there are some, you know, opposite opinion against him, and I guess many other people who are on the Governing Council as well, especially the experts when they came back to the country. But, these are the people who are, because, you know, they are -- they have strong political parties there in Iraq. And at that time, you know, in Iraq you cannot form any political party during Saddam’s regime.

So, these are the four or five strong political parties, and he’s definitely one -- he’s a leader of one of these political parties. And, as I said, right now, yes, they have people who are strongly agreeing with him and hoping for him to be succeeded more and more, and some people are against him and against his -- you know, because they are in favor of another party --.

MR. FRADKIN: -- Which sounds sort of like -- if this is the drift of Mr. Singer’s question -- that sounds like the normal political situation. Some people like him and some people don’t.

MS. AL-SUWAIJ: That don’t. I mean, this is the same thing happening with everyone --.

MR. FRADKIN: -- With the other parties.

MS. AL-SUWAIJ: Every member, and then the other parties, so this is the field right now.

MR. FRADKIN: Thank you very, very much.